Fish Kill on Clarion

[Clarion River parking guy]

Bacillus Thuringiensis Israelensis (Bti)

Bacillus Thuringiensis Israelensis (Bti)

www.pa.gov

You might want to read up on bt. It does not kill all insects or it wouldnt be used.

IDK, I am the one who lives right on the River. They only drop it in on certain sections, not the entire river, mostly area with slow moving/ deep water.

We have about zero mosquito's, biting flies, and nearly EVERYTHING else. Serious decline in other water hatching insects like dragonflies. I could go down to the river on a warm night, and see no more than a few dozen flying insects, mostly gnats. (the issue also effects birds and bats as well as they too feed on mosquitos ) Imagine, stand by a river in PA on a summer night and NOT get bit by bugs?

for years now I have had people fishing ask me about why they have little success with trout on this stretch (specifically here not the entire Ridg-burg stretch), that they are catching bass, blue gill and other species but few trout, certainly no where near as many that used to be here

it used to be, at this time of day (dusk) we could sit on our deck by the river and watch the trout jump like clockwork, that is long gone.

go up or down river a bit, no problem

yes, I know its not scientific, but what I say is a result of repeated observations since 2004.

and overall, when we mess with nature, it is normally for quick gratification. In this case, to make the river more amenable to users of it other then fishermen; people love to kayak and tube without being bit by bugs. However, the effects of the program long term are usually never looked at.

Also, one has to ask: why is the Fish Warden not briefed on these activities? Why doesn't the DEP or DCNR reps for this area not know? No one local seems to know exactly what office in what agency is doing the BT drops. We only know they are BT drops because the local State Rep's office announces them in press releases.

thanks for your reply

 

[troutbert]

The program is run by DEP.

Black Fly

Black Fly

www.pa.gov

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Black Fly

Black Fly

www.pa.gov

There are lots of stream miles treated with BT in Pa and this has been ongoing for several decades. If it was deleterious to other macroinvertebrates, it would be pretty obvious.

 

[Clarion River parking guy]

Black Fly

Black Fly

www.pa.gov

There are lots of stream miles treated with BT in Pa and this has been ongoing for several decades. If it was deleterious to other macroinvertebrates, it would be pretty obvious.

decrease in trout caught on this small stretch where the BT is dropped; decrease and sometimes localized absence of birds who feed on river hatch bugs, as well as bats.

the number of trout has markedly dropped in favor of places up and downriver

guys park in my driveway, go in the river, catch nothing, except bass, unless they walk downstream or upstream

I mean, why the resistance to my first hand - LIVES ON THE RIVER - experience? nothing to be gained by me from what I am saying, if anything, it keeps people away from this specific stretch for fishing as they prefer to go up or down river- taking money from my pocket

If its DEP running the BT program, they are not talking to the dept that sends a different helo- equipped with a type of ground radar, that comes every yr early fall. Clearly 'counting fish". People complain about the lack of fish, and someone takes action. It is classic bureaucratic "one hand not talking to the other hand" activity

 

[TimMurphy]

decrease in trout caught on this small stretch where the BT is dropped; decrease and sometimes localized absence of birds who feed on river hatch bugs, as well as bats.

the number of trout has markedly dropped in favor of places up and downriver

guys park in my driveway, go in the river, catch nothing, except bass, unless they walk downstream or upstream

I mean, why the resistance to my first hand - LIVES ON THE RIVER - experience? nothing to be gained by me from what I am saying, if anything, it keeps people away from this specific stretch for fishing as they prefer to go up or down river- taking money from my pocket

If its DEP running the BT program, they are not talking to the dept that sends a different helo- equipped with a type of ground radar, that comes every yr early fall. Clearly 'counting fish". People complain about the lack of fish, and someone takes action. It is classic bureaucratic "one hand not talking to the other hand" activity

Dear Clarion River parking guy.

If the lack of trout is localized to you yours and your immediate neighbors' properties maybe the problem is of your own creation? I'm not pointing fingers at you and accusing you of deliberately doing something wrong.

It just kind of seems strange to me how people can park in your driveway and walk upstream or downstream from your property and catch trout while none are found around your place?

If the grass is really green around your septic tank, or your neighbor's tanks, I suspect I've found the problem. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[troutbert]

guys park in my driveway, go in the river, catch nothing, except bass, unless they walk downstream or upstream

What are the bass eating?

If that section of river supports a bass population that means there is enough aquatic life in the river to provide them with food.

 

[jifigz]

If people are catching plenty of bass and bluegill (or whatever other sunfish species it may be,) then water temps have to be warmer in this stretch. Smallmouth and brown trout overlap to some degree, and even amazing brown trout streams can have a decent population of SMB, such as the Little J. But bluegill and brown trout don't really overlap. If there are actually bluegill there, the conditions are not conducive to BTs.

I don't think the black fly program has any effect. It's not going to only negatively impact one river section in the state. As Lyco pointed out, if that was the problem, then it would have been evident statewide decades ago.

I'm assuming your stretch lacks appropriate cover and water that BT prefer.

I don't think anyone here is attacking you, but just because you live on or near the river does not make your opinions and evaluations of the situation automatically true.

 

[poopdeck]

I mean, why the resistance to my first hand - LIVES ON THE RIVER - experience? nothing to be gained by me from what I am saying, if anything, it keeps people away from this specific stretch for fishing as they prefer to go up or down river- taking money from my pocket

How is mosquito control and people staying away from certain sections taking money from your pocket? Since you “have been offering the ability for people to park in your driveway” and you are concerned about group rules, are you charging for parking in your driveway? Are you in effect advertising through PM?

 

[5footfenwick]

1.Increased fishing pressure from your property access could be a big part. Fish move away from people spooking them or fishing over them repeatedly. On almost every stream I know, the fish populations are better farther from the access points.

2.Lack of habit due to floods and possibly changing bottom composition and cover density. This could lead to less trout finding water they want to hang out in. Especially if cover or bottom composition are better up stream or downstream.

3. It’s possible with the cyclic nature of trout, it is just at a low in the population right now. This could give the perception that the trout are gone. But perhaps they are just in lower than normal densities. This often gives the false perception that a stream is ruined.

4. The spray reduces insects which reduces birds. Lack of birds give that lack off life feeling. This adds to the feeling that the creek is ruined.

5. We have had some droughts. Is it possible this section just doesn’t handle droughts very well from the trout’s perspective? Lack of spring seeps, lack of riffles with oxygen, lack of shade, lack of deep water etc ?

I don’t think anyone is arguing with your observations. Just that it’s possible that other factors are contributing to and possibly responsible for your first hand accounts of declining trout populations in your section.


~5footfenwick

 

[Cougarbaby]

There's just lack of structure, cover ,undercut banks,fast water etc on long stretches of that river it has nothing to do with what parking lot guy is doing or not doing

 

[mt_flyfisher]

This is off topic, but does anyone know if trout are, or recently were, raised inside the paper plant in Johnsonburg?

The reason I’m asking is that I ran into a man and his wife about 6 years ago who were staying in the same campground as I was in Big Timber, MT who said he had been a VP for that paper company before he retired, and had been responsible for Johnsonburg plant, and other locations. He didn’t go into a lot of details, and I was just coming off the Boulder River from fishing, but he said they actually had some type of holding ponds and raised trout inside the plant.

 

[dryflyguy]

This is off topic, but does anyone know if trout are, or recently were, raised inside the paper plant in Johnsonburg?

The reason I’m asking is that I ran into a man and his wife about 6 years ago who were staying in the same campground as I was in Big Timber, MT who said he had been a VP for that paper company before he retired, and had been responsible for Johnsonburg plant, and other locations. He didn’t go into a lot of details, and I was just coming off the Boulder River from fishing, but he said they actually had some type of holding ponds and raised trout inside the plant.

According to a friend of mine who used to work for Domtar, trout are/were raised there.

 

[TimMurphy]

This is off topic, but does anyone know if trout are, or recently were, raised inside the paper plant in Johnsonburg?

The reason I’m asking is that I ran into a man and his wife about 6 years ago who were staying in the same campground as I was in Big Timber, MT who said he had been a VP for that paper company before he retired, and had been responsible for Johnsonburg plant, and other locations. He didn’t go into a lot of details, and I was just coming off the Boulder River from fishing, but he said they actually had some type of holding ponds and raised trout inside the plant.

Dear mt_flyfisher,

Stop the presses and read it here!

https://www.domtar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Johnsonburg-Mill-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[CRB]

Heres

 

[Cznymph]

Dear mt_flyfisher,

Stop the presses and read it here!

https://www.domtar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Johnsonburg-Mill-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Because polluting the river isn’t enough, they’ve got to spread non native species in it as well.

https://www.ahs.dep.pa.gov/eFACTSWeb/searchResults_singleFacility.aspx?FacilityID=266404

 

[double00]

According to a friend of mine who used to work for Domtar, trout are/were raised there.

Domtar has a co-op hatchery.

 

[mt_flyfisher]

Thank you all for confirming that about Domtar raising trout at their paper mill.

 

[TerrellBFly]

Was up at camp on the Clarion and floated from Irwin to Bell Town. Saw no dead fish at all, and actually we had quite a sulphur hatch around 3pm, first time experiencing it on the Clarion. Usually we run into a caddis hatch, this time of year. While the water was high, float went very well and we ran into a pod of rising trout. I was able to pick one off finally. There were so many mayfly's on the river, it was hard to tell which dry was mine. What an experience!!

 

[dryflyguy]

Was up at camp on the Clarion and floated from Irwin to Bell Town. Saw no dead fish at all, and actually we had quite a sulphur hatch around 3pm, first time experiencing it on the Clarion. Usually we run into a caddis hatch, this time of year. While the water was high, float went very well and we ran into a pod of rising trout. I was able to pick one off finally. There were so many mayfly's on the river, it was hard to tell which dry was mine. What an experience!!

Nice to hear a positive report from there.
Whatever caused the fish kill upstream likely got diluted enough by the time it reached the area you fished

 

[Cougarbaby]

Dilution is the answer to pollution, I've witnessed dumps from the papermill in the past despite that plenty of fattys to be had , like I said before after I couldn't see my toes in 12 inches of water the following week was one of the best dry fly days I ever had , yes they stock trout in local waters and for kid fishing derbys,it's not all bad