PFBC Quarterly Commission Meeting July 24th

[silverfox]

The PFBC will hold it's quarterly meeting on July 24th at 10am. The meeting will be broadcast. I think it's great that they broadcast these meetings. Not everyone can take a day off work to go in person.

Meetings | Fish and Boat Commission | Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

<p>Quarterly Commission, Boating Advisory Board and Committee Meeting agendas, streaming information, public comment opportunities, previous meeting recordings, minutes and more.</p>

www.fishandboat.com

There are some notable agenda items: https://www.fishandboat.com/About-Us/Minutes-Agendas/Documents/AgendaDocs/2023-07-24-agd.pdf

The notice of stocking will be voted on. Finally. I'm still pretty frustrated that it was watered down from what was originally proposed. I suspect the sentiment is that it's a good first step to correcting an issue that has gone on for far too long. I commend the agency for making this first step. However, an authorization should have remained codified and part of the plan. Now we need folks to hound them to add the authorization back in at a future date. Good luck.

The proposal for the 13 (12) Class A brown trout angling regs to protect brown trout and allow the harvest of "all other species" will be under general statewide regulations will be voted on.

I support this concept, but have issues with how it's being implemented. As the private hatcheries argued on the stocking authorization, "the devil is in the details." First, these regulations do more than protect fish. They inform anglers about what's important. In this case, it tells anglers that the only species found in these class a sections that are of any value are brown trout. If rainbows are the only species stocked in these class a sections, why not explicitly state that only rainbows may be harvested under statewide regs? That would protect any wild brook trout or other species that may be present.

Second, the more I've thought about this, the more aggravated I am that this tool is being used for brown trout first. I know some of the commissioners and many members of the public oppose additional angling regulations. I know many people think there are already too many angling regulations. So it's disappointing to see them using "new regulation capital" on brown trout, considering all of the other more recent regulation types (extended season below STW's, slot limit, etc.) have been for brown trout.

Another issue I see with this is that it will likely cause confusion. I suspect in 4 years there will be people saying "you can't keep brown trout in any class A's." People will misinterpret this to mean that BT are protected statewide in all class a's. I'd bet money on it.

I have nothing against the regulations for brown trout that we have. The slot limit is great, though it should have had language to protect brook trout. It's great that we have all these brown trout C&R regs, slot limit regs, etc. etc. etc.. Do we really need more? Are brown trout at great risk of extirpation in PA or something? Last I looked, the only salmonid species in the wildlife action plan is the brook trout. Broadly, that's my issue. It's just brown trout, brown trout, brown trout. I guess it shows where the agency's priorities really are. Generate money and appease the largest angling demographic. I guess we already knew that.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The PFBC will hold it's quarterly meeting on July 24th at 10am. The meeting will be broadcast. I think it's great that they broadcast these meetings. Not everyone can take a day off work to go in person.

Meetings | Fish and Boat Commission | Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

<p>Quarterly Commission, Boating Advisory Board and Committee Meeting agendas, streaming information, public comment opportunities, previous meeting recordings, minutes and more.</p>

www.fishandboat.com

There are some notable agenda items: https://www.fishandboat.com/About-Us/Minutes-Agendas/Documents/AgendaDocs/2023-07-24-agd.pdf

The notice of stocking will be voted on. Finally. I'm still pretty frustrated that it was watered down from what was originally proposed. I suspect the sentiment is that it's a good first step to correcting an issue that has gone on for far too long. I commend the agency for making this first step. However, an authorization should have remained codified and part of the plan. Now we need folks to hound them to add the authorization back in at a future date. Good luck.

The proposal for the 13 (12) Class A brown trout angling regs to protect brown trout and allow the harvest of "all other species" will be under general statewide regulations will be voted on.

I support this concept, but have issues with how it's being implemented. As the private hatcheries argued on the stocking authorization, "the devil is in the details." First, these regulations do more than protect fish. They inform anglers about what's important. In this case, it tells anglers that the only species found in these class a sections that are of any value are brown trout. If rainbows are the only species stocked in these class a sections, why not explicitly state that only rainbows may be harvested under statewide regs? That would protect any wild brook trout or other species that may be present.

Second, the more I've thought about this, the more aggravated I am that this tool is being used for brown trout first. I know some of the commissioners and many members of the public oppose additional angling regulations. I know many people think there are already too many angling regulations. So it's disappointing to see them using "new regulation capital" on brown trout, considering all of the other more recent regulation types (extended season below STW's, slot limit, etc.) have been for brown trout.

Another issue I see with this is that it will likely cause confusion. I suspect in 4 years there will be people saying "you can't keep brown trout in any class A's." People will misinterpret this to mean that BT are protected statewide in all class a's. I'd bet money on it.

I have nothing against the regulations for brown trout that we have. The slot limit is great, though it should have had language to protect brook trout. It's great that we have all these brown trout C&R regs, slot limit regs, etc. etc. etc.. Do we really need more? Are brown trout at great risk of extirpation in PA or something? Last I looked, the only salmonid species in the wildlife action plan is the brook trout. Broadly, that's my issue. It's just brown trout, brown trout, brown trout. I guess it shows where the agency's priorities really are. Generate money and appease the largest angling demographic. I guess we already knew that.

Their going out of their way at this point to not say brook trout, not do anything with brook trout, not acknowledge their existence. Wonder how those meetings with DCNR are going? Lol how is the upcoming deliverable on documenting streams lost to brown trout going? For every person or agency that is trying to conserve the state fish of Pennsylvania PA fish and boat has made the decision not to for you because their personally not interested at all.

 

[silverfox]

Their going out of their way at this point to not say brook trout, not do anything with brook trout, not acknowledge their existence. Wonder how those meetings with DCNR are going? Lol how is the upcoming deliverable on documenting streams lost to brown trout going? For every person or agency that is trying to conserve the state fish of Pennsylvania PA fish and boat has made the decision not to for you because their personally not interested at all.

If it wasn't for Richard Lewis bringing up brook trout during the open floor at the end of the meetings. A few commissioners have made reference to brook trout recently. I think it's becoming obvious to them too. Nothing from staff though.

 

[Fish Sticks]

If it wasn't for Richard Lewis bringing up brook trout during the open floor at the end of the meetings. A few commissioners have made reference to brook trout recently. I think it's becoming obvious to them too. Nothing from staff though.

Yea the problem is they say they are a resource management agency that is serious about conservation but they don’t actually do any meaningful conservation for the most part. They are PA fish-ing and boat. Darters, log perch, brook trout, and hellbenders just gotta sit there and take it for the sale of the almighty trout stamp.

 

[CRB]

Yea the problem is they say they are a resource management agency that is serious about conservation but they don’t actually do any meaningful conservation for the most part. They are PA fish-ing and boat. Darters, log perch, brook trout, and hellbenders just gotta sit there and take it for the sale of the almighty trout stamp.

"When trout stocking occurs, it attracts substantially more harvest-oriented anglers. Instatewide surveys of Pennsylvania’s stocked and wild trout streams in 2004 and 2005,staff documented that stocked trout streams had greater than five times higher harvestrates than streams managed for wild trout without stocking. Given the similarities ofBald Eagle Creek, Section 06, to the 11 other Class A stream sections stocked with troutand managed with Commonwealth Inland Waters regulations, it is likely that similarharvest rates are occurring, and harvest is also precluding those wild Brown Troutfisheries from reaching their full potential and negatively impacting population sizestructure.
Most (66%) anglers interviewed indicated support for an alternate management approachthat would require catch and release of Brown Trout while allowing for the continuedharvest of Rainbow Trout under Commonwealth Inland Waters regulations. This wouldeliminate harvest mortality and could provide an opportunity for the wild Brown Troutpopulation to expand, including large (≥ 14 inches) wild Brown Trout that are mostdesirable to anglers, while continuing to provide an opportunity for anglers to harveststocked Rainbow Trout.Given the wild Brown Trout population characteristics and estimated angler use, harvest,and opinions determined during the recent assessment of the 12 stream sections managedas both Class A wild trout stream sections and STWs, staff propose implementing aMiscellaneous special regulation (58 Pa. Code § 65.24) on the 12 stream sections thatwould manage Brown Trout with catch-and-release regulations and maintainCommonwealth Inland Waters regulations for all other species with all tackle typespermitted, while continuing to stock these stream sections with Rainbow Trout at currentrates and frequency."

Anglers want the change.

 

[troutbert]

"When trout stocking occurs, it attracts substantially more harvest-oriented anglers. Instatewide surveys of Pennsylvania’s stocked and wild trout streams in 2004 and 2005,staff documented that stocked trout streams had greater than five times higher harvestrates than streams managed for wild trout without stocking.

This is why ending stocking over native brook trout is so important.

 

[silverfox]

Anglers want the change.

That's my point. It's a popularity contest. It shouldn't be.

Thank god the PGC doesn't operate on that model. The state's imported Bengal tiger population would wipe out the native whitetail populations, and the tiger hunting fans would shrug their shoulders and say, "The price of progress. At least we have tigers."

 

[Fish Sticks]

And I will also say that no one would oppose just making open harvest on rainbows only either which would protect the occasional wild native brook trout in some of these class A streams. It was just done stupidly and in the worst way possible for wild native brook trout which is on Par with PFBC’s standard operating procedure.

 

[jifigz]

That's my point. It's a popularity contest. It shouldn't be.

Thank god the PGC doesn't operate on that model. The state's imported Bengal tiger population would wipe out the native whitetail populations, and the tiger hunting fans would shrug their shoulders and say, "The price of progress. At least we have tigers."

What about the state's pheasant stocking program which leads to competition with native gamebirds? And those stocked pheasants have established wild populations across much of the nation in which those birds compete with native species.

We should stop stocking over brookies though. Just pointing out a similarity in management to PGC and PFBC.

 

[TheAppalachianAngler]

What about the state's pheasant stocking program which leads to competition with native gamebirds? And those stocked pheasants have established wild populations across much of the nation in which those birds compete with native species.

We should stop stocking over brookies though. Just pointing out a similarity in management to PGC and PFBC.

This is a good point.
They should probably stop that practice.

 

[jeffroey]

That's my point. It's a popularity contest. It shouldn't be.

Thank god the PGC doesn't operate on that model. The state's imported Bengal tiger population would wipe out the native whitetail populations, and the tiger hunting fans would shrug their shoulders and say, "The price of progress. At least we have tigers."

I'm starting an invasive tiger thread right now . . .

 

[silverfox]

What about the state's pheasant stocking program which leads to competition with native gamebirds? And those stocked pheasants have established wild populations across much of the nation in which those birds compete with native species.

We should stop stocking over brookies though. Just pointing out a similarity in management to PGC and PFBC.

Absolutely. Imagine if PFBC had a stocked trout stamp that was required to fish for stocked trout, and the only money they used for raising trout came from the stocked trout stamp sales. That would be a more direct comparison to the current pheasant program.

Imagine if PGC spent 80% of its revenue on raising pheasants.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea Penn State Smeal College of Business told PFBC in a consultation that they will go bankrupt if they don’t close down hatcheries or cut fish because their expenses are growing faster than their revenue.

That was in 2017

What did PFBC do? Take $27.5 million from the tax payer in the form of grants that could have gone to conservation(growing greener 2) and used almost all of it on expensive hatchery repairs and maintenance. That tax payer money grab bought them time but the same problem of hemorrhaging more cash than you take in is still there and while they jack up individual license fees we saw a drop in sales I believe so they can’t just raise license fees forever, PSU said that to and forecasted angler drop out from fee increases.

Whats your long term plan PFBC?

Almost guaranteed that its raid the general fund created by your tax dollars in the form of more grants to keep the hatchery program turd afloat.

 

[jifigz]

Imagine if PGC spent 80% of its revenue on raising pheasants.

There would be a lot of pheasants.

I just bought all of my PGC licenses the other day. It cost me $66. 80% of $66 is $52.80. I wonder what $52.80 worth of pheasants looks like...

I did not buy a $26 pheasant stamp..... Maybe I should have, though.

 

[silverfox]

There would be a lot of pheasants.

I just bought all of my PGC licenses the other day. It cost me $66. 80% of $66 is $52.80. I wonder what $52.80 worth of pheasants looks like...

I did not buy a $26 pheasant stamp..... Maybe I should have, though.

I bought a pheasant stamp the first year they moved it to its own stamp. There are only 3 locations in my county that get birds. All three were an absolute war zone. I didn't even get out of my truck.

 

[jifigz]

I bought a pheasant stamp the first year they moved it to its own stamp. There are only 3 locations in my county that get birds. All three were an absolute war zone. I didn't even get out of my truck.

Yeah, the program doesn't seem very intriguing to me. I have never purchased the pheasant stamp.

 

[falcon]

Yes a ware zone in the Delaware Park in Pike County. At one time probably pre 70s PA was one of the best pheasant states in the US. Better than many of the traditional states today.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

Were anyone sections that have been stocked designated as Class A?

 

[Mike]

13 as I recall. I’m glad you said “sections” because you are correct. It’s not 13 streams; it’s 13 sections with some streams having more than one Class A section stocked.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

I understand what's going on with that. I'm asking if any streams (sections)stocked in 2023 were designated class A for 2024. This happened with Cold Stream, Brooks Run, West and Middle Genesee, Freeman Run, East Fork SInnemahoning,etc. over the past few years.
I read spring fundraising newsletters from East Fork Sportsman and Potter County Anglers (both have co-op nurseries) and both newsletters said people at PFBC told them to expect more for 2024.
I apologize for being short with my question.